Area : Writing Date : Tue Oct 15, 09:20 From : Michael Nellis 1:240/99.58 To : All Subj : Writing scam FAQ /I ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Q: Here I am, a writer, and with all this brilliantly crafted and really hot stuff, the first thing I have to do is to get an agent to represent me, right? That way I'll have someone who'll protect my work and get me truckloads of money, right? A: Wrong. Due to the increasing number of people who consider themselves to be writers, but who can't spell, punctuate, or properly use grammar or syntax, many publishing houses now insist on accepting _for reading_ only those manuscripts which have been submitted by agents. This has thrust upon the agents the onus which was once upon the publishing houses: the reading of many frightfully bad manuscripts to find the one which is worth further consideration This means that agents must now take steps to ensure that they are not overwhelmed by submissions from wannabes (wannabe twits who want to be published, but don't want to do any of the work associated with writing). One of those steps is to levy a reading fee for any manuscript which comes in over the transom. No fee, no reading, which means an automatic rejection. However, there is a practice which has been common for many agents for many years. This practice is to accept only those works which have already been sold. The reason for this practice is that an agent gets money only if a work is sold, and taking on a promising, albeit unsold, work, means a significant investment in time, energy, and resources to attempt to place the work; with no guarantee of it's ever being sold. Area: Writing Date : Sep 21 '96 From : Kestrel T'Rael To : Clayton Davis Subj : HELP - US AGENCY ---------------------------------------------------------------------- CD> You must have never dealt with agents. First you contract with CD> them to represent you. Then they find a publisher. Some CD> publishers will only accept submissions from agents. See? Most agents won't accept you unless you've had sales before. They want a proven product -- easier to sell to a publisher that way. Rich was probably wondering if you had the agent who charges you a ridiculous amount up front for his questionable ability to sell your work, or if you had the type agent who knew he could sell something of yours because something of yours has sold before. There's a difference. See? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Aside from that, there are many traps out there for the unwary, and one thing you must look out for are scam artists. There are people who are pretending to be agents and who will happily make noises about representing you, but whose who sole purpose is to make truckloads of money at your expense. Q: There are? But these people are just isolated individuals, aren't they? A: Maybe, but there is enough of them, and anyone can spend a few dollars to rent a P.O. Box and to register a company for any purpose under any name. Once that is done, they can then buy advertising space in the trade journals, such as _Writer's Digest,_ and then sit back and wait for the queries to start pouring in. That's when the confidence tricksters go to work, as can been seen in the following extract. Area: Writing Date : Sep 09 '96, 11:05 From : Felicity Walker To : All Subj : HELP - US AGENCY ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hello! I am new to this echo, and being naturally shy and retiring (NOT!!!) I couldn't bring myself to join in an ongoing discussion. So instead I thought I'd ask for help! An American agency has expressed interest in a synopsis/partial I sent them. In their reply they asked me to send the full manuscript with a US$150 cheque - made out to a specific person. This all sounds a bit fishy to me, and as I live in the land-down-under, I can't look into it personally. Apart from anything else, I am sure I heard that legit. US agencies don't charge reading fees. HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The agency is : The Woodside Literary Agency 33-29 58 Street Woodside New York 11377 also in Adirondack, NY and Marco Island, FL If someone out there in WRITING land can help me on this, I'd really appreciate it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Q: You said above that many agents are now charging reading fees. Isn't this a case of an agency charging reading fees? And what's wrong with paying reading fees, anyway? A: It is highly doubtful that a request for such a large sum of money is a request for legitimate reading fees, for one thing. Area: Writing Date : Sep 13 '96 From : Pat Dewey To : Felicity Walker Subj : HELP - US AGENCY ---------------------------------------------------------------------- FW> So instead I thought I'd ask for help! An American agency has FW> expressed interest in a synopsis/partial I sent them. In their FW> reply they asked me to send the full manuscript with a US$150 FW> cheque - made out to a specific person. This does seem fishy. I'm pretty sure it's a real agency, but $150?! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Area: Writing Date : Sep 15 '96 From : Michael Nellis To : Felicity Walker Subj : HELP - US AGENCY ---------------------------------------------------------------------- FW> An American agency [...] FW> In their reply they asked me to send the full manuscript FW> with a US$150 cheque - made out to a specific person. MN> There have been horror stories [...] MN> I'll root around in my files and see if I saved any of them. I haven't found any of those horror stories, yet, but I did find a few viewpoints supporting my arguments in my archived mail. ====================================================================== Date: 07-04-93 From: GEORGE WILLARD To: MICHAEL NELLIS Subj: RE: INFO PLEASE Conf: Writing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > GM> Mike, I received another letter by the Literary Agent in > GM> the States about my Novel. They seem pretty interested, > GM> would they do all this for $125, I have no clue. MN> This question was asked of me by a another writer here in QC. MN> I am curious to know myself, is this just a marketing MN> technique, or are they interested in reading the manuscript, MN> albeit for a reading fee? They're interested in the $125. They're literary whores. Tell him I'll read it for $50. I'm a cheap literary whore. ====================================================================== Date: 07-05-93 From: LAURIE CAMPBELL To: MICHAEL NELLIS Subj: RE: INFO PLEASE Conf: Writing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [...] The offer belongs in the Pixel Poop, Mike. ====================================================================== Date: 07-05-93 From: Rich Veraa To: MICHAEL NELLIS Subj: INFO PLEASE Conf: Writing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [...] It's possible. But you can bet they're a lot more interested in the 125 bucks. ====================================================================== Date: 07-20-93 From: BRYNA STEVENS To: MICHAEL NELLIS Subj: RE: INFO PLEASE Conf: Writing ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [...] They just want your money. Legitimate agents don't charge reading fees. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Area: Writing Date : Sep 13 '96 From : Karen Rhodes To : Felicity Walker Subj : HELP - US AGENCY ---------------------------------------------------------------------- FW> The agency is : The Woodside Literary Agency I don't know anything about that agency particularly, and am not at present in any position to find out. However, for an agency to ask for $150 up front DOES sound fishy. Maybe someone here can look them up for you in Literary Market Place or some other reference. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Area: Writing Date : Sep 17 '96 From : Barbara Shafferman To : Felicity Walker Subj : HELP - US AGENCY ---------------------------------------------------------------------- FW> This all sounds a bit fishy to me, and as I live in the FW> land-down-under, I can't look into it personally. Apart from FW> anything else, I am sure I heard that legit. US agencies don't FW> charge reading fees. It sounds fishy to me too! I would avoid any agency that asks for money up front, either before or after they read your manuscript. I looked up the Woodside Literary Agency in two books I own. They were not listed in either. If I were you, I'd forget about them. There are a lot of unscrupulous people out there who prey on writers. That agency may be one of them. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- For another thing, legitimate businesses do not ask that checques be made out to a specific person, they ask that the checque be made out to whatever the company name is. When was the last time you paid an insurance premium to John Doe instead of to Life Assurances Co.? As to what's wrong with paying illegitimate reading fees, see the following extracts. Area: Writing Date : Sep 13 '96 From : Michael Nellis To : Felicity Walker Subj : HELP - US AGENCY ---------------------------------------------------------------------- FW> So instead I thought I'd ask for help! An American agency FW> has expressed interest in a synopsis/partial I sent them. FW> In their reply they asked me to send the full manuscript FW> with a US$150 cheque - made out to a specific person. It's a good thing you asked. Chances are very high in favour of this agency being a rip-off. Don't send them so much as a plugged nickel. There have been horror stories posted in here about people who sent their manuscripts with reading fees and were only asked to send more money. I'll root around in my files and see if I saved any of them. FW> Apart from anything else, I am sure I heard that legit. US FW> agencies don't charge reading fees. Correct. At any rate, we are supposed to _get_ money for our manuscripts, not shell it out. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Area: Writing Date : Sep 16 '96 From : David Jacklin To : Felicity Walker Subj : HELP - US AGENCY ---------------------------------------------------------------------- FW> So instead I thought I'd ask for help! An American agency has FW> expressed interest in a synopsis/partial I sent them. In their FW> reply they asked me to send the full manuscript with a US$150 FW> cheque - made out to a specific person. Don't bother, Felicity. Reading fees lead to publication fees, distribution fees, and fees to buy the 3,000 remaining copies from the run of 3,000. It isn't worth it. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- <<< Continued to next message >>> --- timEd-B11 * Origin: Fang's Lair: @ Quebec City, Canada (1:240/99.58) Area : Writing Date : Tue Oct 15, 09:23 From : Michael Nellis 1:240/99.58 To : All Subj : Writing scam FAQ /IV ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ <<< Continued from previous message >>> Q: How can I protect myself against being ripped off by a fraudulent agency? A: One way is to be aware that they exist and what to look for. Another is to research the agency the same way you would research a topic for a book. Area: Writing Date : Sep 13 '96 From : Ken Wolf To : Felicity Walker Subj : HELP - US AGENCY ---------------------------------------------------------------------- FW> So instead I thought I'd ask for help! An American agency has FW> expressed interest in a synopsis/partial I sent them. In their reply FW> they asked me to send the full manuscript with a US$150 cheque - made FW> out to a specific person. RED ALERT! See, we're lucky to have you. This is a fraud (a scam, as we Yanks say). Some agencies do charge fees, for things used to get your manuscript before a publisher (mostly phone charges & photocopying) but these charges are spelled out in a contract between you and them. People here have had bad experiences with many agencies. FW> This all sounds a bit fishy to me, and as I live in the FW> land-down-under, I can't look into it personally. If there's something a Wolf likes to do, it's hunt. After a morning of phone calls, to the New York City Better Business Bureau and to the Marco Island BBB, I have these results: The Woodside Literary Agency is not listed with the BBB, nor does the BBB have any complaints on record. However, they caution, this does not mean that the company is good. It might indicate that they were doing business under another name, or are new, or that they really don't exist. The New York BBB went on to say that here is no town called Adirondack in New York state - it is a region that covers about 1/4 of the state. Marco Island, in Florida, has no telephone listing for Woodside Literary Agency. In short, you just saved yourself $150 and a lifetime of embarrassment. The New York BBB says that they have cases of "agencies" requesting fees and a manuscript, then taking the money AND the ms and vanishing. This is prevalent in areas outside their own geographical region, hoping no one will check. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- In the above extract you can see a bit about how fraudulent agencies operate. Q: By what other methods do these scam artists operate? Aren't they supposed to provide a service for payment rendered? Don't they have contractual obligations? A: Sure, but these people are engaged in fraud to begin with. Also, a contract is only binding as far as what is written in it, and it is likely that the contracts by the frauds who want a longer term operation will be written in their favour. Q: For how long can these frauds operate? A: For as long as they can get away with it. Years, in some cases. Area: Writing Date : Sep 25 '96 From : Rich Veraa To : Clayton Davis Subj : HELP - US AGENCY ---------------------------------------------------------------------- CB> or dealt with an agent? Yes, and that's why I'm trying so hard to establish this person's bona fides. Some thirty years ago, when the first publisher I sent it to failed to buy my egregious, sophomoric first novel, my father offered to pay the modest (I think it was about $50.00, but everything was cheaper then) reading fee of an agent who advertised in _Writers' Digest_. Of course he loved my book, and sent a very impressive-looking representation contract. There would, however, be a small expense ($200.00) to have my MS copy-edited prior to submission. A month later, my MS was returned with blue-penciled editing reducing all compound and complex sentences to simple declarative, with monosyllabic near-synonyms for all words of three or more syllables, with a letter from the agent saying that it now needed re-typing, which he offered to have done at a bargain $500.00. My father was ready to pay that too, but a friend volunteered to retype it. After returning the MS to the agent, we never heard a word for two years, during which time I sent a couple dozen inquiries. Finally the MS was returned with a penciled card saying, "Couldn't place this -- sorry." Inside was my original wrapping and cover letter intact within it. The bloody thing had never even been looked at. Of course, the contract had expired after the two years, relieving the agent of any and all responsibility. I found out later that this is the commonest scam in the business, as one might guess from reading the other replies to Felicity's post -- all of which, except yours, characterize charging reading fees as prima-facie evidence of ethical misconduct. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Q: How can I trust what you are saying? How do I know that you aren't trying to make them look bad so you can rip me off? A: Sharing market information is one of the purposes of Writing echo. We attempt to ensure that information posted to the echo is accurate. Area: Writing Date : Sep 25 '96 From : Rich Veraa To : Clayton Davis Subj : HELP - US AGENCY ---------------------------------------------------------------------- [...] CD> Do you want Reynolds info? YES. I haven't been writing all this to contradict you, and I certainly don't wish to argue with you. More important than that, though, I'd prefer that misleading information not be posted here, as many people look to this forum as a source of authoritative information. If there's a reason for us to think of this man as an ethical agent that's more substantial than the fact that he sent you a contract, we'd very much like to hear it. And if Commonwealth Publishers is a vanity house, what's he got to do with them in the first place? There has to be a lot here that you're not telling us. [...] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Q: But aren't even these guys professionals who know what they are talking about? Surely they have the expertise to critique manuscripts and knowledge of the market. Even submitting to them must have some value. A: Possibly, but you better not count on it. A scam artist is in it to make money, not to help you make money, and for that reason cannot be trusted to return either an honest critique or to know anything about the market, since marketing is not their primary objective. ====================================================================== Date: 06-10-94 From: JIM COLEMAN To: MICHAEL NELLIS Conf: WRITING ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The Scott Meredith literary agency took $500.00 of mine two years ago, only to write me a scathing six-page letter castigating me for how morally insulting certain parts of the storyline were. It's the first time I've had to pay to try to wrecklessly insult people and destroy their lives. The book was IMMEDIATELY snatched up by another agency. Go figure. ;) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Q: Is there a list of agencies that engage in ethical misconduct? A: I doubt it, although there might be. Such a list would be required to be kept up to date, however, since some agencies which are fraudulent would be shut down in favour of newly named agencies operated by the same people fairly frequently. Q: Are there any other scams I should be aware of? A: Yes, vanity publishers. Area: Writing Date : Oct 08 '96, 10:06 From : Michael Nellis To : Felicity Walker Subj : HELP - US AGENCY ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi, Felicity. MN> A vanity press is a place that asks you to send your MN> work for a contest, charging an entry fee to accept the work, then MN> they tell you that your piece is a winner and is being anthologized, MN> and that you can have a copy of the anthology for another mere MN> 69.95. . . . FW> Are you kidding me? Alas, no. It's a fairly common scam. FW> We must be partially civilised down FW> here in OZ, because I've never come across this type of FW> competition. Count yourself lucky. It is sometimes difficult to sort out the ethical contests from the scams. One place I remember that turned out to be a vanity publisher is the National Library of Poetry, which seems to have had an ongoing contest. They had a long running advert in our community newspaper. (They operate out of the eastern states, somewhere.) FW> Although I do remember one magazine I FW> subscribe to saying something about being careful of FW> anthology competitions. Perhaps they exist, but I haven't FW> entered one yet. Sounds like much the same thing. Some places scam prose writers the same way. "Send your unpublished short story in to our contest with a (20-40-50 dollar) entry fee," and a few weeks later they send you a letter saying that you've won and that your story is to be included in an anthology of winners. FW> Why are writers such popular targest for so many scams? Is FW> it simply that so many are so desperate to be published? Yep. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Q: Is that why such scam artists can get away with that sort of thing for years on end? A: In part. Area: Writing Date : Oct 07 '96, 10:15 From : Laurie Campbell To : Felicity Walker Subj : HELP - US AGENCY ---------------------------------------------------------------------- FW> Why are writers such popular targest for so many scams? Is it FW> simply that so many are so desperate to be published? Yes, it is because of the desperation - but also because writing tends to be a solitary pursuit so that writers are less likely to get together with other writers and find out what are scams and what are not. After someone has had several rejections, being told that the writing is wonderful and will be published (for a small fee) seems like a good deal if there's no way of finding out that it's not. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Another part of it might be that in some cases, there is no actual occurance of fraud, merely of unethical conduct. It is also likely that many cases simply go unreported, either to law enforcement agencies or to writers and writers groups because of the above mentioned solitude, and possibly embarrassment to the victim at having being taken. Q: So, what does it all boil down to? A: Be aware, as much as you can be, of market conditions. Keep a sharp look out for requests of large amounts of money up front; a demand for large reading fees is almost certain to herald a scam. Also, do not hesitate to ask other writers, or institutions dedicated to writers, such as QSPELL or SFWA, about possible contacts, and should you come across a contact that doesn't smell right, let others know about it as well. After all, if we don't look out for ourselves, who will? --- timEd-B11 * Origin: Fang's Lair: @ Quebec City, Canada (1:240/99.58)